On Wednesday, May 6th, the barnesandnoble.com was excited to welcome Sir Martin Gilbert, one of the foremost historians of the 20th century, who joined us to discuss his new book, ISRAEL.
Moderator: Welcome, Sir Martin! Thank you for taking the time to join us online tonight to discuss your new book, ISRAEL. How are you doing this evening?
Martin Gilbert: I am doing very well indeed, and in fact where I am it is not yet night.
Sharon W. from New Orleans, LA: If you had to mark a period in Israel's history that is representative, what would you pinpoint that time to be? I know that is kind of a broad question, but I was curious to get your opinion...
Martin Gilbert: I think I would take Independence Day 1966, so we are talking about a period when there has been no war for ten years, when the general antimilitarism of Israel means that the military aspects of the parade have been downgraded, and when there is optimism that peace will prevail.
Dina from New York, NY: Today's
New York Times had a front-page headline about Netanyahu possibly rejecting Clinton's invitation to come to the U.S. for peace negotiations if it meant agreeing to hand over any more West Bank land. What do you think of this?
Martin Gilbert: My instinct is that the process will continue, but he is under enormous pressure from his coalition, who oppose handing over this land, but my suspicion is that it might go to the last minute or 11th hour, and he will make the journey. I hope so...
LA9Teacher from Kansas: Mr. Gilbert, I am a high school English teacher. If you could have a wish granted that a particular issue was taught in high school, what would it be? Thank you.
Martin Gilbert: I think I would wish, and this goes beyond Israel as well as including it, I would wish that we had consideration for others taught as a subject. Good manners, politeness, being aware of other people's needs. Pausing for a moment before disagreeing with somebody.
Jessica from San Diego, CA: How do you react to people who say that Israel is the "spoiled child" of America, which has, by default, permitted it to occupy other people's land in the name of its security concerns, in a way that no other country has been allowed to do. Do you think there is any validity to this statement?
Martin Gilbert: That is not true at all. Israel was attacked by Syria and Egypt and Jordan simultaneously. In the end, the Arab armies were driven back, and Israel found itself in these lands. The U.S. played no part in the war. Indeed the U.S. has insistently urged Israel to support the UN, which calls for a withdrawal from the occupied lands, and even now Madeleine Albright is urging Israel to make concession that are beyond the maximun it can make.
Marijke from Tampa Bay, FL: Here we are at the 50th anniversary...is Israel in more turmoil than ever? Can the conflict be resolved, or is it better to accept a perpetual state of war than force peace?
Martin Gilbert: I have never been a believer in any situation remaining static. France and Germany were in a state of war for years and millions died, and today you can cross from one country to the other without even showing a passport. I hope this will be true eventually in Israel and Palenstine, and one must rememeber that Jordan and Israel have already made peace, and Jordan's border is the biggest that Israel has.
Dyson Yu from Hong Kong: What was the most difficult time during the writing of the book ISRAEL?
Martin Gilbert: When I had reached the high point of the Oslo Agreement and the Rabin government and Rabin's achievement of a handshake with Arafat, after I myself had been with John Major with Rabin and Arafat and everything seemed to be moving toward a rapid and succesful agreement. And then came the assasination of Rabin, and everything began to unravel. It was difficult writing about a situation that was moving in one direction and then started to move in another direction.
John from Staten Island, NY: How important are American Jews to Israel's survival?
Martin Gilbert: I think first and foremost for Israel's survival is the security of the state of Israel; second is the economic state of Israel as it is advancing through its businessmen and manufacturers; third, the ability of Israel to establish peace; and certainly fourth in order of importance is the ability of Israel to maintain good relations with the Jews in America and the European community. And therefore it is important that Israel's policies should keep on board the enthusiasm, and that includes the financial contribution of America and western Europe.
Brad from Livingston, NY: Do you think American Jews are more supportive or less supportive of Israel now than they were ten years ago?
Martin Gilbert: My impression is that the level of support of American Jews is always higher than that of Jews elsewhere, and when there has been a dip in support this should serve as some sort of warning light. If American Jewry is discontented then something is going wrong, but in the main it does support the government of the day, and the current government receives much support from the American Jews. I am talking about political issues, not religious.
Xenocidal from Orlando, FL: Mr. Gilbert, I would just like to say that I'm one of your biggest fans. And secondly, I'm a sort of a writer-in-training, and I want to know how would I go about being as good as you.
Martin Gilbert: I think good or bad, I appreciate you being a fan, and I suppose the answer I could give is persevere. Don't be discouraged, and seek encouragment from people like yourelf, but persevere. Don't despair, and have faith in your own abilites, and eventually you will build up a favorable circle and you will do what you like. Don't let your writing be bullied into something you don't what it to be by others.
Rachel from Bryn Mawr, PA: What's your opinion of Netanyahu?
Martin Gilbert: There is a phrase in the Bible, "Canst thou draw up Leviathan with a hook?" Leviathan was a great sea creature, and a fisherman's hook wasn't always capapble of drawing it up. I have tried in my book to give a portrait of him and what makes him tick, but I also deal with some specific issues he has addresed. If I have one criticism, he could do much more to reduce the level of tension and conflict within Israel. As prime minister he has the power to be the voice of reconciliation, and I would like to see him grasp that task.
Brett from New York City: Is the world at large a better place having Israel, or could it be argued that the threat it poses to international peace makes it more trouble than it's worth?
Martin Gilbert: I don't think it poses much threat to international peace. I am just casting myself back to the foundation of the state, and I have written a great deal about this in my upcoming volume of history. North Korea and North Vietnam were both threats to international peace, but they were contained, and certainly Iraq posed a threat, but ironically all of Israel's wars have been strictly limited and for a short duration. If you look at my book, even when the U.S. and the Soviets were facing off in regard to Israel, there was no real threat to international peace.
Gregory from Bryan: Do you have a period in Israel's history that you have a special interest in?
Martin Gilbert: Definitely. The period of special interest was the October War of 1973, because I was there at the time. I was caught in a Syrian artillery barrage, and I saw a nation at war from inside with all the terrible traumas that even victory brings. That is also reflected in my book, probably because I had that personal experience.
Paul from Morris Plains, NJ: I know this is not in line with the chat topic, but I was wondering what it was like being knighted. Was that one of the most interesting experiences in your life?
Martin Gilbert: Yes, the most thrilling thing was my wife and two sons watching and seeing their father become Sir Martin and their mother becoming Lady Gilbert. It was thrilling. I am only sorry that my father was not alive to share in the excitement of the occasion.
Marley from Seattle, WA: I once had a professor who anticipated that the war in Israel would center around water supplies as opposed to land, due to its desert climate. Would you agree?
Martin Gilbert: Absolutely. I think water is the crucial element, and what is the most hopeful sign is that agreement on water proceeds. The most recent agreement was signed by Jordan and Israel, so water, which could have been a path to war, is proving in a curious way that it is the road to peace.
Erica Jess from Arlington, VA: How long did it take you to do the research on ISRAEL? Was there anything in your research that surprised you?
Martin Gilbert: I began serious research in the first week of November 1973, and it was my hope to complete the book in time for Israel's 30th anniversary, and I missed my deadline, and so the reader now gets 20 years of additional history. As for the second part of the question, I would like to feel that wherever the book falls open it would surprise you just as it surprised me. So the surprises relate to every period and every episode.
Eric from Streatham Common, UK: Do you feel much sympathy for the Palestinians?
Martin Gilbert: From my desk where I work I can see Streatham Common. I think my book redresses the balance of history, where their plight often gets left out. If you happen to read the book you will find things about the Palestinians that will please you. I include periods when their national aspirations are slowly being realized. I believe the policies of the Palestinians are fulfilling their dreams. It is very inspiring for those who follow their struggle.
Bill from New York: I was in Israel when King Hussein of Jordan did his historic flyover. I consider that a high point in the country's history. How did we go from there to here -- which I consider a low point?
Martin Gilbert: I don't know if we passed each other in the street, but I was there as well. We got to the low point, in a process that I describe in the book, from misunderstanding, acts of terror, and a combination of setbacks that have led us to a very low point, as you say. I was fortunte or perhaps unfortunate to continue writing my book to describe how it happened, and hopefully in that description we can see how we can move out of the canyon of despair to the heights of hope.
Frank from Texas: This may be a pointed question: Is the President treating Netanyahu like dirt, or is the State Department in bed with the Arab countries? Thank you for taking my question.
Martin Gilbert: Well, the President and State Department are consistent in a general level of criticism, certainly since he has become prime minister, but I think that goes back a long time. I remember in 1973 the U.S. committing itself to supplying Israel, and similary the U.S. has never recognized their stance in East Jerusalem, and whatever your view of the politcs of that it is definitely a consistent policy. It goes back a long way in the past. If you have a chance to seee my book you will see at every stage I cover the U.S. involvement, which is cautious and sometimes critical and sometimes hypercritical.
Margaret Jones from Bryn Mawr, PA: Good evening Mr. Gilbert! I was just wondering who were some of your historic and literary influences? Are you a fan of Arthur Schlesinger's work? What about Eric Hobsbawm? Thanks!
Martin Gilbert: Without putting on a long gray beard, I think of them as my contemporaries, and Hobsbawm is a neighbor, and Arthur is a friend. They have both influenced me. One American who has influenced me was Henry Steele Commager. His works on American politics were very influential. Motley was also very much an influence, and his history of the Dutch was one of the best of all time, that of course was a 19th-century work. I was also influenced by Thomas Carlyle and his writings on French history. Incidentally, one can also be influenced by one's pupils. I was influenced by Tobias Wolff, who was my pupil at Oxford.
Edmond from Grand Rapids, MI: What do you think about the criticism that the so-called New Historians warp the past by projecting an image of today's Israel back into previous eras? Do you think that is happening?
Martin Gilbert: I am very unhappy about the New Historians, and I think you are essentially right. What is called New History does seem to derive from contemporary positioning in the debate. But there is always a place for critical scrutiny, and I am sure my book also contains harsh criticism, but in its own context. My view is that there is only one history: true history. I would prefer "true" to "new."
Neil from Irvine, CA: Good evening, Mr. Gilbert! What is your overall opinion of the first prime minister of Israel, David Ben-Gurion?
Martin Gilbert: I am glad to get your question, because I was just in Irvine. He was a very complicated person, and in my book I give you his portrait, and if you look him up in my index I give a historical narrative of his career, so you can follow a little sketch. I suppose he had the ruthlessness that all national leaders need in times of crisis. He was highly cultured and deeply versed in Jewish history, and he had an understaning of the wider issues involved. His single most important decision was declaring Israel's statehood. His military advisers doubted that it was wise, but from that moment everything else followed, and Israel became part of the international community.
Atalya from Cardiff, CA: Does your book cover the exceptional military forces that Israel has?
Martin Gilbert: Yes! It covers its military positon in every decade. It covers the underground armies, and the Stern Gang, etc. I go into all the wars in great detail.
Jeffrey from Galway, NY: Do you have any more history books in the works? What's your next project?
Martin Gilbert: My next project, already well under way, is a three-volume history of the 20th century. Volume 1 was published earlier this year, and six days ago I handed in the script to Volume 2, and I am returning to London to start work on Volume 3. I try to write 4,000 to 5,000 words a day, and I hope to return to the U.S. with the third volume very shortly.
Moderator: Thank you for answering all of our questions, Sir Martin Gilbert. We wish you the best of luck with ISRAEL and hope you will join us online again in the near future. Do you have any final words for the online audience?
Martin Gilbert: I can't see you, but it is always a pleasure to be in touch with my fans, and it is always my ambition to have you find my work interesting ans stimulating.
Ideals of StatehoodSince the destruction of the Second Temple by the Romans in AD 70, the Jews, who were dispersed all over the Roman Empire, had prayed for a return to Zion. 'Next year in Jerusalem' was — and remains — the hope expressed at the end of every Passover meal commemorating the ancient exodus from Egypt. For two millennia the dream of such a return seemed a fantasy. Everywhere Jews learned to adapt to the nations within whose borders they lived. Frequent expulsion to other lands made a new adaptation necessary, and this was done. But Zion, which had been under Muslim rule almost without interruption since the seventh century, and under the rule of the Ottoman Turks since the early sixteenth century, was possible only for a few.
The perils of the journey could be severe. Of 1,500 Jews who travelled from Poland, Hungary and Moravia to Palestine in 1700, as many as 500 died on the way. But the imperative to return physically from exile never entirely died. In 1777 more than 300 Hasidic Jewish families, upholders of ultra-Orthodox Judaism, made the journey from Poland to Palestine. In 1812 some 400 followers of the Vilna Gaon — one of the enlightened Jewish sages of his generation — made the journey from Lithuania.
By the middle of the nineteenth century about 10,000 Jews lived in Palestine. More than 8,000 of them lived in Jerusalem. A few hundred lived in the holy city of Safed, in the north, where several Jewish sages were buried, in the mountain village of Peki'in (which had a tradition of continuous Jewish settlement since Roman times) and in nearby Tiberias on the Sea of Galilee. In the coastal town of Acre lived 140 Jews,mostly pedlars and artisans, but many without any means of support. There were several hundred Jews in Jaffa.
Most of the Jews in Palestine were immigrants from Poland and Lithuania. Many of them survived on charity, sending regular begging letters back to their original communities in Europe, and even dispatching special emissaries to raise funds. But the attraction of Palestine was growing. In 1862 a German Jew, Moses Hess, an advocate of the Jewish return to Palestine, wrote in his book Rome and Jerusalem of how his Jewish 'nationality' was connected 'inseparably' with the Holy Land and the Eternal City. Hess added, 'Without a soil a man sinks to the status of a parasite, feeding on others.'
Eight years later in 1870 a French educator, Charles Netter, with the approval of the Turkish authorities, founded an agricultural school at Mikveh Israel (Hope of Israel). The name was taken from a description of God in the book of Jeremiah. Located a few miles inland from Jaffa, Mikveh Israel was a settlement to which Jews living in countries where they experienced various educational disabilities and restrictions — initially Persia, Roumania and Serbia — could come to live and study.
It was in 1876 that the British Christian writer George Eliot (a pseudonym for Mary Ann Evans) completed her novel Daniel Deronda. It was to make its impact on many Jews, among them two Russian Jews, Eliezer Ben-Yehuda and I. L. Peretz, both of whom were to exert considerable influence, through their own writings, on Jewish national aspirations. One passage in the novel was often quoted.
Revive the organic centre; let the unity of Israel which has made the growth and form of its religion be an outward reality. Looking towards a land and a polity, our dispersed people in all the ends of the earth may share the dignity of a national life which has a voice among the peoples of the East and the West — which will plant the wisdom and skill of our race so that it may be, as of old, a medium of transmission and understanding.
In 1878 a number of Jews from Jerusalem decided to establish a Jewish village in the Palestinian countryside. Their first effort — was to buy some land near Jericho, but the Sultan refused to allow ownership to be transferred to Jews. They did manage to buy land from a Greek landowner in the coastal plain, and named their village Petah Tikyah (Gateway of Hope), but malaria, disappointing harvests, and quarrels among them led to failure. By 1882, when they abandoned the village, there were only ten houses and sixty-six inhabitants.
Also founded in 1878, by religious Jews from Safed who wanted to earn their own livelihood, and not be dependent on charity, was the village of Rosh Pinah. Lacking funds and experience, and frequently harassed by the Arabs from nearby villages, they gave up after two years, but Roumanian Jews, driven from Roumania by persecution and poverty, renewed the settlement in 1882, and obtained sufficient aid from the French Jewish philanthropist Baron Edmond de Rothschild to survive. Growing tobacco and planting mulberry trees for silkworms were two of their enterprises. Like so many of the Jewish settlements that were to be founded in Palestine, the name of Rosh Pinah was taken from a biblical phrase, in this case the 'head stone' from Psalm 118: 'The stone which the builders refused is become the head stone of the corner. This is the Lord's doing. It has become marvellous in our eyes.'
Copyright ) 1998 by Martin Gilbert
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